Nobel laureate economist Amartya Sen, in a recent interview with Sabir Ahamed and Suvojit Bagchi at his residence in Santiniketan, spoke on a wide range of subjects from developmental issues of Bangladesh to Indian politics, societal and educational practices to sweeping changes initiated in history studies.
Question: The subcontinent has been independent for over seven and half decades. What do you think about the future of the three main countries in the region – India, Bangladesh and Pakistan?
Answer: India, Pakistan and Bangladesh – all have different sets of problems. We are aware of that, but the problems are different. On one hand, the suppression of political thought may be increasing in India; it may not have been witnessed earlier or was less.
In Bangladesh, there has been a historical change. Now (in Bangladesh) we can clearly see that there is a great effort to look after the poor. It is not so in India nor in Pakistan. Bangladesh has taken important steps to address the issues of the poor. India or Pakistan may have a few things to learn from Bangladesh. But as far as political discussions and debates were concerned, perhaps it was more possible to conduct such debates in Bangladesh than India. Perhaps that space is shrinking gradually (in Bangladesh).
At the same time, we have to admit that a smallness of thought is gaining ground in India too. In India, one may say, there was not much interest in the poor, but some humanitarian responsibilities were fulfilled and an effort to empower them determined certain actions. That effort is diminishing. It cannot be said anymore that poor people are receiving more attention in India now and thus the changes that are taking place cannot be supported.
Question: Bangladesh has undoubtedly made a lot of progress. However, they are facing various economic problems in the last year or so. Macroeconomic indicators, such as dwindling foreign exchange reserves or debt overburden, are some of the indicators. India’s macroeconomic indicators, such as the (spending in) retail market or growth in land/house prices, have remained fairly stable and the market is not entirely stagnant. Is Bangladesh is relatively more unstable than it was in the recent past, while the condition of India is not as bad as was expected?
Answer: There is truth in what you said. But it is not possible to accept that as a definitive truth. It is true that there are some problems in Bangladesh, as you said. Despite this, Bangladesh has been able to come forward in many ways; they have been able to give a form to their problems and this form is not always trending downwards. On the other hand, many things were tried in India in the past. Even Gandhi’s thoughts had an impact on India. It appears to be decreasing gradually.
I cannot comment about macroeconomic indicators. However, macroeconomic indicators can be judged from various perspectives. There are few key points to analyse indicators. For example, whether the girls are eating and drinking properly, what is the nature of the educational practices or what is the probability of getting a job or if we may ask if people have mobility to go elsewhere in search of work. Such questions can always be asked.
If we judge by those factors, I cannot say that India has fared much better than Bangladesh on macroeconomic scales.
Question: India is called the world’s largest democracy. But it is now being said almost everywhere that the right to express one’s’ opinion is diminishing. Minority rights are diminishing as well. What are your thoughts?
Answer: It can be analysed in many ways. Bangladesh has had various problems since its inception. Sectarianism is a big problem. Now there is an understanding and resistance in Bangladesh against communalism. However communalism in India is way worse than in Bangladesh, at this time.
Question: Way worse in India?
Answer: Of course. Some people are allowed to say what they think, but is that freedom? Some people get a chance to say what they think … their words may have some significance. But can it be called freedom? There is no doubt that overall freedom of expression has declined.
I have a student who says, ‘When we read what you write, it seems like something (positive) is going to happen, this time. Then everything is back to how it was before. (I) can’t say that they do not care what you say at all. But definitely they are ignoring you.’ (Laughs) This is the difference when it comes to the question of Hindutva; it has undoubtedly increased. It cannot be denied.
Question: History is changing. Removing Mughals from history books, changing street names, removing Maulana Abul Kalam Azad from textbooks – such events are happening now. But on the other hand, we find a paper based on your maternal grandfather Kshitimohan Sen’s book, ‘Hindu-Muslims’ Collective Work.’ It has being included in the curriculum in a Bengal University…
Answer: We do come across some good work. There is enough effort. But in the meantime, the lack of thought is also evident. Like when the Mughals came… it is said that the Hindu kings defeated the Mughals completely… (laughs) But it didn’t happen. (It) didn’t happen at all. Now if this is said, then we have to think about the kind of history that is being taught… students are learning things which are plain wrong.
Question: In your and Kshitimohan’s work it is always highlighted with great care that Dara Shikoh, the son of Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan, translated some books of Upanishads into Sanskrit. His work to popularise Hindu philosophy in the west is immense. This is the history of India. This diversity is gradually being erased by ‘new’ history. Rise of Hindi-Hindu Nationalism is being imposed on the states. In retaliation regional/sub-regional nationalism is on the rise. How do you see this?
Answer: There is definitely a big problem brewing. Because there were various types of people in India and there still are. Our rulers had thought through this. Dara Shikoh— the one you mentioned— thought a lot about these things. He spread Hinduism abroad. The most beautiful and spectacular monument in India (Taj Mahal) was built in his mother’s memory. We see different thoughts in him (Dara Shikoh).
Question: In that era, in the greater world, Persian language was considered important. What the Iranians translated would spread to the rest of the world. Books of Hinduism were translated and spread in the world. As a result, Dara Shikoh’s translation from Sanskrit into Iranian and from Iranian into German ensured the spread of Hindu religion to the world. But it indeed is a very complicated matter and we don’t have enough time to discuss it now. But can one deny Dara Shikoh’s contribution to spread Hindu religion?
Answer: It is true that Aurangzeb taxed Hindus. But it can no longer be said that paying taxes for the Hindus is a big deal in this age (laughs). Also, I would like to add, we don’t have many kinds of discussions when we exchange thoughts these days… For example, I now can think of Clive’s question to Siraj ud-Daula; when Clive asked him, who are Siraj’s closest friends? Many he named were Hindus. Hindu landlords. Siraj had no enmity with them.
Question: How was the Hindu-Muslim relationship during the time of the British?
Answer: Again many things can be said and we do not have time. When the British made Permanent Settlement under Muslim rule, the Hindus got the benefit. That the Muslim community should be given more opportunities than the Hindus was never thought of by the Muslim kings. There were many (Hindu) kings and all these people benefited during the rule of the Muslims. This was not unusual. This is something that we often miss. How did this happen? How is it possible?
It is possible because Muslims – as the kings – had no great desire to ensure that the Muslim community should do better than the Hindus; as a result, those who benefitted are Hindus in many cases. This particular point needs to be underscored. It is often said in our country that when the Muslims arrived in India, Hindus have suffered greatly… an West Indian writer said this… what’s his name? He kept repeating his ideas. I also quoted him in a context. (He said that) after the rise of the Muslims, no Hindu temples were built, no Hindu institutions were developed. Hinduism hit the rock bottom. This is all nonsense.
Yes…I remember his name…V S Naipaul from the West Indies. Naipaul said all this (laughs). He married a Pakistani woman who is also a good friend of mine (laughter). It is important to remember here that a country moves with its diversity. People of different religions, different castes live in it.
We can identify two things in India today on the question of federalism. One is political centralism, another economic. A trend of political centrism is that the opposition must stay with the ruling party. There are numerous examples to establish the point you know. On the other hand, there is economic centralism. These are continuously increasing. What is the future?
If we look at India as a country, it is difficult to say how much freedom the different regions have. We have reached a point here in time…historically… through dialogue and logic. There is a truth in this argument. Now if this truth or logic is being ignored in multiple ways…
Question: Control at the central level is increasing especially in law making. For example, there is talk of bringing a Uniform Civil Code by replacing the traditionally diverse families and inheritance laws according to religion.
Answer: Yes, that’s what I was thinking of. Where is the need for all people to follow exactly the same rules? There is a need to think about it. And if that is the case, we need to think… who benefits from this. If one section has excessive religious power and influence over others then what they think can be easily implemented. If we say that there should be one kind of rule everywhere (then) we need to think about what society would look like in future. What shape it would take…
Question: It was a matter of great pride for us to release the regular census data. Now this is not published regularly. A few days ago it was said that the census data cannot be released before 2024. What was supposed to be released in 2021-22, got delayed. The last census was held in 2011. Why are they (the government) not sharing the information?
Answer: Power in the absence of truth benefits in many ways. There are many evidence of this. They get help from it in various ways. I think the government doesn’t want to reveal information at the moment. For example (they don’t want) specific information about unemployment and poverty to be revealed. The government does not want an elaborate discussion on this. Earlier bank accounts were linking Aadhaar (identification number) to get benefits of various government schemes. It was hoped that this would benefit people. It does not seem to have happened in reality.
Question: We now notice that the central government is consistently bringing corruption to the fore and scaring the opposition, arresting and putting them in jail, cases are being filed by the central agencies. Perhaps no political leader in South Asia is without corruption. But just because it’s being used against the opposition, do you think we need a new narrative on corruption?
Answer: I will not say that corruption is not an issue. Corruption attacks us in many ways. But we should look at corruption in a different way. It was never like this in India that central government was so concerned about corruption that they promptly used to take action. Nope, they were not. But yes… suddenly now corruption has emerged as a great excuse to send people to jail, to bully them. Therefore, it cannot be considered right that this is being done in our country because there is corruption. Corruption exists in all countries. There is corruption in Italy… in Greece. That again does not mean that we do not have corruption.
